Re: Re: Re: perm apply ptf's -- DOMINO400





We do a full system save before any PTFs or upgrades are applied.

Patrick



                                                                           
             seanmurphy@bedbat                                             
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             domino400-bounces         domino400@xxxxxxxxxxxx              
             +ptrapp=nex-tech.                                          cc 
             com@xxxxxxxxxxxx                                              
                                                                   Subject 
                                       Re: Re: Re: perm apply ptf's        
             04/21/2005 08:28                                              
             AM                                                            
                                                                           
                                                                           
             Please respond to                                             
              Lotus Domino on                                              
               the iSeries /                                               
                   AS400                                                   
             <domino400@midran                                             
                  ge.com>                                                  
                                                                           
                                                                           




Who backs up thier system before appling PTFs?

We do a full system save before applying in Production.

Sean




http://www.bedbathandbeyond.com



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04/21/2005 09:20 AM
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Domino400 Digest, Vol 3, Issue 83






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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Re: perm apply ptf's (Chris Whisonant)
   2. Re: perm apply ptf's (rob@xxxxxxxxx)
   3. Re: Re: perm apply ptf's (rob@xxxxxxxxx)
   4. Re: perm apply ptf's (Chris Whisonant)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

message: 1
date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 09:02:09 -0400
from: Chris Whisonant <Chris.Whisonant@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
subject: Re: Re: perm apply ptf's

Ahh, defective PTFs.... When I was a newbie I crashed our failover iSeries

applying some PTFs. This was back in December of 2000 when I had been
fresh out of college in May and working with the AS/400s. We were pretty
religious about scouring through the defective PTF lists back then. I had
spreadsheets setup, etc.... Pretty cool little system. Anyway, about a
week prior we loaded the PTFs on our production box (why in the world my
bosses did that instead of loading on failover first I still don't know!).

We had some issues and found that one of the PTFs on that latest CUME was
bad. So, my boss told me to make sure I excluded it when doing the
failover PTFs. I still swear to this day that I double-checked to make
sure it wasn't loaded, but when I was bringing the box back up - bam!

Couldn't even get to the A side to remove it! Had to slip the LIC and
reinstall completely!!! Fun experience for me...lol

Chris Whisonant
Comporium
Senior Mid-Range Systems Administrator
IBM eServer Certified Systems Expert - iSeries Technical Solutions V5R2
IBM Certified System Administrator - Lotus Notes and Domino 6/6.5
803.326.7270 | 803.326.6142 fax
http://cwhisonant.blogspot.com/

domino400-bounces+chris.whisonant=comporium.com@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote on
04/21/2005 08:31:31 AM:

> PTFs have been like playing Russian roulette with a fully loaded
revolver
> over the last year or so.
>
> We have been burned many, many times.
>
> Anything Domino related we install TEMP, and I usually test the backout
if
> it is significant enough.
>
> The usual OS/400, Java, Brms etc are applied on a 4 week rotation on our


> systems are applied as PERM.
>
> We are usually a month behind the bleeding edge in PTFs.
>
> You want to lose sleep at night?
>
> Read up on defective PTFs................   It amazes me that DB2 on
> iSeries even works.
>
> http://www-912.ibm.com/s_dir/sline003.
> NSF/3a8f58452f9800bc862562900059e09e/c6ab0c609a1d2f3e86256c0f00586539?
> OpenDocument
>
> Sean

------------------------------

message: 2
date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 08:13:53 -0500
from: rob@xxxxxxxxx
subject: Re: perm apply ptf's

All of that is true.  However I still don't think it justifies doing the
APYPTF *ALL *PERM.  Because then your A side will be equal to your B side
and then you would no longer have a fall back position.  If a PTF is
superceeded it will automatically be applied permanent and that should
automatically update your A side, and thus your fallback position.

Rob Berendt
--
Group Dekko Services, LLC
Dept 01.073
PO Box 2000
Dock 108
6928N 400E
Kendallville, IN 46755
http://www.dekko.com





Robert Laing <rlaing@xxxxxxxxx>
Sent by: domino400-bounces+rob=dekko.com@xxxxxxxxxxxx
04/20/2005 05:03 PM
Please respond to
Lotus Domino on the iSeries / AS400 <domino400@xxxxxxxxxxxx>


To
Lotus Domino on the iSeries / AS400 <domino400@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
cc

Subject
Re: perm apply ptf's






My understanding is, there are two layers of the OS on the iSeries running
on what is referred to as the A side and B side of the system.  Most
iSeries are typically IPL'd from the B side of the OS.  When the OS is
loaded, carbon copies exist on the A side and B side. When PTF's are
loaded, they are loaded to the B side, system runs from the B side and
hopefully all is well.  If something goes drastically wrong with the PTF's
loaded on the B side, the system can be IPL'd from the A side and run as
before the PTF's were loaded.  If the PTF's are good, before loading the
latest CUM or Group, permanently applying the PTF's will load them onto
the
A side, new PTF's are now loaded on the B side.  So you always have a
fallback position by IPLing from the A side.

If I have any of this wrong -- someone else please chime in...

Bob





             rob@xxxxxxxxx
             Sent by:
             domino400-bounces                                          To


             +rlaing=gemko.com         Lotus Domino on the iSeries / AS400


             @midrange.com             <domino400@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
                                                                        cc



             04/20/2005 05:55                                      Subject


             PM                        Re: perm apply ptf's


             Please respond to
              Lotus Domino on
               the iSeries /
                   AS400
             <domino400@midran
                  ge.com>






Why?

Rob Berendt
--
Group Dekko Services, LLC
Dept 01.073
PO Box 2000
Dock 108
6928N 400E
Kendallville, IN 46755
http://www.dekko.com





Robert Laing <rlaing@xxxxxxxxx>
Sent by: domino400-bounces+rob=dekko.com@xxxxxxxxxxxx
04/20/2005 04:49 PM
Please respond to
Lotus Domino on the iSeries / AS400 <domino400@xxxxxxxxxxxx>


To
Lotus Domino on the iSeries / AS400 <domino400@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
cc

Subject
Re: perm apply ptf's






It's a good rule of thumb to permanently apply ptf's before upgrading to a
new release or loading a new cum/group package.  Other than that, freeing
DASD would be the only other reason I would see to permanently apply
ptf's.

Bob





             rob@xxxxxxxxx
             Sent by:
             domino400-bounces                                          To

             +rlaing=gemko.com         Lotus Domino on the iSeries / AS400

             @midrange.com             <domino400@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
                                                                        cc


             04/20/2005 03:41                                      Subject

             PM                        Re: perm apply ptf's


             Please respond to
              Lotus Domino on
               the iSeries /
                   AS400
             <domino400@midran
                  ge.com>






And, Domino has done strange things in the past, like having you reload
one extended product after having upgraded your version of Domino.  I
suspect they do something like having a different version of some program
or service program out there based on whether or not you have that
extended product.  For example, let's say that QINNINSTS was a program.
Then if you had a certain extended product (Sametime, Quickplace, LEI,
Domino Fax for iSeries, etc) they might replace that program with a
modified version of their own.

The only time 'traditional' os/400 programs have ever replaced a ptf was
when a test version of that ptf was released to a few restricted customers
for testing.  Then a bug was reported and they modified it, did their
internal regression testing, and then released it again to the test crowd.
 But this test crowd is aware that it is a test ptf and they should not
permanently apply it.  (And it really vexes IBM when you do.  Trust me,
they don't like regening a ptf as a new number just because you oopsed.
They'll do it, because you are the customer and deserve their service, but
you do have to let them vent as your part of the partnership.)

Rob Berendt
--
Group Dekko Services, LLC
Dept 01.073
PO Box 2000
Dock 108
6928N 400E
Kendallville, IN 46755
http://www.dekko.com





Chris Whisonant <Chris.Whisonant@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent by: domino400-bounces+rob=dekko.com@xxxxxxxxxxxx
04/20/2005 01:57 PM
Please respond to
Lotus Domino on the iSeries / AS400 <domino400@xxxxxxxxxxxx>


To
Lotus Domino on the iSeries / AS400 <domino400@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
cc

Subject
Re: perm apply ptf's






We never apply permanently either unless we are upgrading OS releases.

What is up with updating the PTF?!? That's the most insane thing I've
heard of in a while. I wonder how many other times this has happened?

Chris Whisonant
Comporium
Senior Mid-Range Systems Administrator
IBM eServer Certified Systems Expert - iSeries Technical Solutions V5R2
IBM Certified System Administrator - Lotus Notes and Domino 6/6.5
803.326.7270 | 803.326.6142 fax
http://cwhisonant.blogspot.com/

domino400-bounces+chris.whisonant=comporium.com@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote on
04/20/2005 02:53:58 PM:

> Someone recently asked a question regarding permanently applying ptf's
as
> a general rule.  I'd like to give another example of why not.  Just
today
> I got an email from an IBMer supporting Notes.  They wanted me to
> redownload the ptf for Team Workplace (Quickplace) as instructed by:
> http://www-1.ibm.com/support/docview.wss?rs=0&uid=swg24009143
> I already had this ptf loaded and applied.  However, someone decided to
> update the ptf versus coming out with a new ptf number.  (Crack addict?)


> So I had to RMVPTF, reload it, and apply the new reload.  If I had
applied
> this permanently I would have had to DLTLICPGM 5733LQP, reinstall it,
then
> load and apply the updated ptf.
>
> As a general rule I never do a APYPTF LICPGM(*ALL) APY(*PERM).
>
> Rob Berendt
> --
> Group Dekko Services, LLC
> Dept 01.073
> PO Box 2000
> Dock 108
> 6928N 400E
> Kendallville, IN 46755
> http://www.dekko.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> This is the Lotus Domino on the iSeries / AS400 (Domino400) mailing list
> To post a message email: Domino400@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or change list options,
> visit: http://lists.midrange.com/mailman/listinfo/domino400
> or email: Domino400-request@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> Before posting, please take a moment to review the archives
> at http://archive.midrange.com/domino400.
>
_______________________________________________
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------------------------------

message: 3
date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 08:15:42 -0500
from: rob@xxxxxxxxx
subject: Re: Re: perm apply ptf's

Your last paragraph speaks volumes as to why I am not a big fan of
permanently applying ptf's.  Been there, done that.

Rob Berendt
--
Group Dekko Services, LLC
Dept 01.073
PO Box 2000
Dock 108
6928N 400E
Kendallville, IN 46755
http://www.dekko.com





Chris Whisonant <Chris.Whisonant@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent by: domino400-bounces+rob=dekko.com@xxxxxxxxxxxx
04/21/2005 08:02 AM
Please respond to
Lotus Domino on the iSeries / AS400 <domino400@xxxxxxxxxxxx>


To
Lotus Domino on the iSeries / AS400 <domino400@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
cc

Subject
Re: Re: perm apply ptf's






Ahh, defective PTFs.... When I was a newbie I crashed our failover iSeries


applying some PTFs. This was back in December of 2000 when I had been
fresh out of college in May and working with the AS/400s. We were pretty
religious about scouring through the defective PTF lists back then. I had
spreadsheets setup, etc.... Pretty cool little system. Anyway, about a
week prior we loaded the PTFs on our production box (why in the world my
bosses did that instead of loading on failover first I still don't know!).


We had some issues and found that one of the PTFs on that latest CUME was
bad. So, my boss told me to make sure I excluded it when doing the
failover PTFs. I still swear to this day that I double-checked to make
sure it wasn't loaded, but when I was bringing the box back up - bam!

Couldn't even get to the A side to remove it! Had to slip the LIC and
reinstall completely!!! Fun experience for me...lol

Chris Whisonant
Comporium
Senior Mid-Range Systems Administrator
IBM eServer Certified Systems Expert - iSeries Technical Solutions V5R2
IBM Certified System Administrator - Lotus Notes and Domino 6/6.5
803.326.7270 | 803.326.6142 fax
http://cwhisonant.blogspot.com/

domino400-bounces+chris.whisonant=comporium.com@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote on
04/21/2005 08:31:31 AM:

> PTFs have been like playing Russian roulette with a fully loaded
revolver
> over the last year or so.
>
> We have been burned many, many times.
>
> Anything Domino related we install TEMP, and I usually test the backout
if
> it is significant enough.
>
> The usual OS/400, Java, Brms etc are applied on a 4 week rotation on our



> systems are applied as PERM.
>
> We are usually a month behind the bleeding edge in PTFs.
>
> You want to lose sleep at night?
>
> Read up on defective PTFs................   It amazes me that DB2 on
> iSeries even works.
>
> http://www-912.ibm.com/s_dir/sline003.
> NSF/3a8f58452f9800bc862562900059e09e/c6ab0c609a1d2f3e86256c0f00586539?
> OpenDocument
>
> Sean
_______________________________________________
This is the Lotus Domino on the iSeries / AS400 (Domino400) mailing list
To post a message email: Domino400@xxxxxxxxxxxx
To subscribe, unsubscribe, or change list options,
visit: http://lists.midrange.com/mailman/listinfo/domino400
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Before posting, please take a moment to review the archives
at http://archive.midrange.com/domino400.




------------------------------

message: 4
date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 09:20:11 -0400
from: Chris Whisonant <Chris.Whisonant@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
subject: Re: perm apply ptf's

Bob,

I believe you are pretty much right with that. However, I think that the A

side is meant only for permanently applied MF (hardware) PTFs and that
software PTFs would be the same as on the B side.

OK, I think I was right as I found this to confirm...and the statement
that "when the operating system is upgraded to a new release, the A side
and B side match." leads me to think that it may be unnecessary to perm
apply the PTFs before installing a new release. Although, it is in IBM's
documentation that you should do this.

http://www-912.ibm.com/s_dir/slkbase.nsf/3cdf5d853ca698198625680b00020369/6e3958aef5fb1646862565c2007d201d?OpenDocument



Question:

What is the difference between the A side and the B side?

Answer:

A/B side concepts are relative to LIC and not to OS/400 or LPP PTFs. When
a new system is shipped or when the operating system is upgraded to a new
release, the A side and B side match. When LIC PTFs are temporarily
applied, they are applied to the B side. If you have temporarily applied
LIC PTFs and you are running on the A side, you will not be running with
the PTFs.

Previous to V3R1M0, you had to be running on the A side to apply PTFs to
the B side. When GO PTF, Option 8 is used to apply LIC PTFs, the system
determines if you are running on the A side or the B side. If you are
running on the A side, the LIC PTFs are applied immediately. The system is

IPLed to the B side to apply the rest of the PTFs. If you are running on
the B side, the system does a partial IPL to the A side to apply the LIC
PTFs. The system is IPLed back to the B side to apply the rest of the
PTFs.

Starting in V3R1M0, immediate LIC PTFs can be applied to the B side while
you are running on the B side. If you are on the B side and you use GO PTF
, Option 8 Automatic IPL Y to apply immediate LIC PTFs. The system IPLs to

the B side to apply the PTFs. The system does not IPL to the A side.
Delayed LIC PTFs in V3R1 and beyond function the same way all LIC PTFs
functioned before V3R1M0. Permanently applying LIC PTFs puts the PTF on
the A side. Once the PTF is permanently applied, it cannot be removed.

Chris Whisonant
Comporium
Senior Mid-Range Systems Administrator
IBM eServer Certified Systems Expert - iSeries Technical Solutions V5R2
IBM Certified System Administrator - Lotus Notes and Domino 6/6.5
803.326.7270 | 803.326.6142 fax
http://cwhisonant.blogspot.com/

domino400-bounces+chris.whisonant=comporium.com@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote on
04/20/2005 06:03:53 PM:

> My understanding is, there are two layers of the OS on the iSeries
running
> on what is referred to as the A side and B side of the system.  Most
> iSeries are typically IPL'd from the B side of the OS.  When the OS is
> loaded, carbon copies exist on the A side and B side. When PTF's are
> loaded, they are loaded to the B side, system runs from the B side and
> hopefully all is well.  If something goes drastically wrong with the
PTF's
> loaded on the B side, the system can be IPL'd from the A side and run as
> before the PTF's were loaded.  If the PTF's are good, before loading the
> latest CUM or Group, permanently applying the PTF's will load them onto
the
> A side, new PTF's are now loaded on the B side.  So you always have a
> fallback position by IPLing from the A side.
>
> If I have any of this wrong -- someone else please chime in...
>
> Bob
>
>
>
>
>
>              rob@xxxxxxxxx
>              Sent by:
>              domino400-bounces To
>              +rlaing=gemko.com         Lotus Domino on the iSeries /
AS400
>              @midrange.com             <domino400@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> cc
>
>              04/20/2005 05:55 Subject
>              PM                        Re: perm apply ptf's
>
>
>              Please respond to
>               Lotus Domino on
>                the iSeries /
>                    AS400
>              <domino400@midran
>                   ge.com>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Why?
>
> Rob Berendt
> --
> Group Dekko Services, LLC
> Dept 01.073
> PO Box 2000
> Dock 108
> 6928N 400E
> Kendallville, IN 46755
> http://www.dekko.com
>
>
>
>
>
> Robert Laing <rlaing@xxxxxxxxx>
> Sent by: domino400-bounces+rob=dekko.com@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> 04/20/2005 04:49 PM
> Please respond to
> Lotus Domino on the iSeries / AS400 <domino400@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
>
> To
> Lotus Domino on the iSeries / AS400 <domino400@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> cc
>
> Subject
> Re: perm apply ptf's
>
>
>
>
>
>
> It's a good rule of thumb to permanently apply ptf's before upgrading to

a
> new release or loading a new cum/group package.  Other than that,
freeing
> DASD would be the only other reason I would see to permanently apply
> ptf's.
>
> Bob
>
>
>
>
>
>              rob@xxxxxxxxx
>              Sent by:
>              domino400-bounces To
>
>              +rlaing=gemko.com         Lotus Domino on the iSeries /
AS400
>
>              @midrange.com             <domino400@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> cc
>
>
>              04/20/2005 03:41 Subject
>
>              PM                        Re: perm apply ptf's
>
>
>              Please respond to
>               Lotus Domino on
>                the iSeries /
>                    AS400
>              <domino400@midran
>                   ge.com>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> And, Domino has done strange things in the past, like having you reload
> one extended product after having upgraded your version of Domino.  I
> suspect they do something like having a different version of some
program
> or service program out there based on whether or not you have that
> extended product.  For example, let's say that QINNINSTS was a program.
> Then if you had a certain extended product (Sametime, Quickplace, LEI,
> Domino Fax for iSeries, etc) they might replace that program with a
> modified version of their own.
>
> The only time 'traditional' os/400 programs have ever replaced a ptf was
> when a test version of that ptf was released to a few restricted
customers
> for testing.  Then a bug was reported and they modified it, did their
> internal regression testing, and then released it again to the test
crowd.
>  But this test crowd is aware that it is a test ptf and they should not
> permanently apply it.  (And it really vexes IBM when you do.  Trust me,
> they don't like regening a ptf as a new number just because you oopsed.
> They'll do it, because you are the customer and deserve their service,
but
> you do have to let them vent as your part of the partnership.)
>
> Rob Berendt
> --
> Group Dekko Services, LLC
> Dept 01.073
> PO Box 2000
> Dock 108
> 6928N 400E
> Kendallville, IN 46755
> http://www.dekko.com
>
>
>
>
>
> Chris Whisonant <Chris.Whisonant@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent by: domino400-bounces+rob=dekko.com@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> 04/20/2005 01:57 PM
> Please respond to
> Lotus Domino on the iSeries / AS400 <domino400@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
>
> To
> Lotus Domino on the iSeries / AS400 <domino400@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> cc
>
> Subject
> Re: perm apply ptf's
>
>
>
>
>
>
> We never apply permanently either unless we are upgrading OS releases.
>
> What is up with updating the PTF?!? That's the most insane thing I've
> heard of in a while. I wonder how many other times this has happened?
>
> Chris Whisonant
> Comporium
> Senior Mid-Range Systems Administrator
> IBM eServer Certified Systems Expert - iSeries Technical Solutions V5R2
> IBM Certified System Administrator - Lotus Notes and Domino 6/6.5
> 803.326.7270 | 803.326.6142 fax
> http://cwhisonant.blogspot.com/
>
> domino400-bounces+chris.whisonant=comporium.com@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote on
> 04/20/2005 02:53:58 PM:
>
> > Someone recently asked a question regarding permanently applying ptf's
> as
> > a general rule.  I'd like to give another example of why not.  Just
> today
> > I got an email from an IBMer supporting Notes.  They wanted me to
> > redownload the ptf for Team Workplace (Quickplace) as instructed by:
> > http://www-1.ibm.com/support/docview.wss?rs=0&uid=swg24009143
> > I already had this ptf loaded and applied.  However, someone decided
to
> > update the ptf versus coming out with a new ptf number.  (Crack
addict?)
>
>
> > So I had to RMVPTF, reload it, and apply the new reload.  If I had
> applied
> > this permanently I would have had to DLTLICPGM 5733LQP, reinstall it,
> then
> > load and apply the updated ptf.
> >
> > As a general rule I never do a APYPTF LICPGM(*ALL) APY(*PERM).
> >
> > Rob Berendt
> > --
> > Group Dekko Services, LLC
> > Dept 01.073
> > PO Box 2000
> > Dock 108
> > 6928N 400E
> > Kendallville, IN 46755
> > http://www.dekko.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > This is the Lotus Domino on the iSeries / AS400 (Domino400) mailing
list
> > To post a message email: Domino400@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or change list options,
> > visit: http://lists.midrange.com/mailman/listinfo/domino400
> > or email: Domino400-request@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Before posting, please take a moment to review the archives
> > at http://archive.midrange.com/domino400.
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End of Domino400 Digest, Vol 3, Issue 83
****************************************

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