Don't forget about supply and demand. As demand for Iseries skills wanes
(and it is lessening - undeniable fact), the money will continue to go down.
Of course importing more Iseries labor makes it worse as that increases the
supply for the lessening demand and makes no sense whatsoever. It IS taking
money from the Americans that are Iseries developers. Salaries/rates in IT
most definitely have gone up over the last couple of years - just not for
Iseries. In a few cases they have gone up dramatically (again - supply and
demand). Everyone here seems to be complaining about the supply side of
the equation. You can not forget about the demand side. It is a simple
fact guys (like it or not) - Iseries skills are just not as much in demand
as they once were and therefore you won't see any rapid increase in
rates/salaries. What is an Iseries guy to do about it? Move to where the
fewer jobs are just to find a job and be ready to have an ever harder time
finding work next time (not easy), retrain in a newer / more in demand skill
(definitely not easy because most companys won't give you the chance), or
change careers (not easy). Complaining about h1's taking your jobs won't
increase the demand for your skills (which is where the largest part of the
problem really is). I know these won't be popular thoughts - but they are
the cold hard facts. Supply and demand.
-----Original Message-----
From: midrange-jobs-bounces+bestjobs1=mindspring.com@xxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:midrange-jobs-bounces+bestjobs1=mindspring.com@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of midrange-jobs-request@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 2:14 AM
To: midrange-jobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: MIDRANGE-JOBS Digest, Vol 5, Issue 192
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: FW: FW: MIDRANGE-JOBS Digest, Vol 5, Issue 187
(kabbott1@xxxxxxxxxx)
2. Re: MIDRANGE-JOBS Digest, Vol 5, Issue 184 (Frank Marshall)
3. Re: FW: MIDRANGE-JOBS Digest, Vol 5, Issue 187 (Frank Marshall)
4. Re: FW: FW: MIDRANGE-JOBS Digest, Vol 5, Issue 187
(Joe Cunningham)
5. FW: FW: FW: MIDRANGE-JOBS Digest, Vol 5, Issue 187 (Joe
Pluta)
6. Re: FW: FW: FW: MIDRANGE-JOBS Digest, Vol 5, Issue 187
(Shadrach Scott)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
message: 1
date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:02:28 -0800
from: <kabbott1@xxxxxxxxxx>
subject: Re: [MIDRANGE-JOBS] FW: FW: MIDRANGE-JOBS Digest, Vol 5,
Issue 187
LOL! Good wrap up Joe.
Any programmer who has changed jobs, for a similar position, between 2000
and now will tell you that salaries dropped precipitously after Y2K and have
continued to decline. I changed jobs 4 times because of layoffs since 2000.
My salary dropped each time except the most recent, 6 months ago. The most
recent job change was a 2% increase from the previous job. Nothing to shout
about, and I had to push hard to get that. I am now making rougly 30% less
than I did in 2000. Virtually every programmer I have spoken to has a
similar story. Anyone who believes that average programmer salaries haven't
dropped has their head in the sand, or somewhere other than firmly on their
shoulders.
I know Shadrach will come back and say that he changed jobs and his salary
hasn't decreased. I want to point out that I stated "for a similar
position". We're not talking about people changing jobs to become managers,
consultants, contractors, construction workers, etc.
Karl
---- Joe Pluta <joepluta@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
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*** Recruiters may advertise only permanent employment positions in this
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From: Shadrach Scott [mailto:shadrachscott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
The bigger and most undeniable fact is that outsourcing just
transfers wealth out of the
American middle class to outsourcing companies (and to a small
degree the
employees of those corporations) and to the primary shareholders of
multinational companies. It's a short term redistribution at
best, since it
is the disposable income of the American middle class that has
supported a
significant segment of the growth of the world's economy in the
first place.
I have been looking at articles and statistics on the web this
evening and can not find a source that would back this comment up.
Can you point me to a source to back up your "undeniable fact".
This part is simple, and there's nothing I can do to convince you if
you don't see the obvious: any foreign programmer takes money from an
American middle class worker. Typically even if that person can find
another job, it pays less and has fewer benefits.
I am not finding the numbers that support your point. You claim it
is "simple math" but I don't find any numbers that even start to
support your claim.
Shadrach, if you think the average American is better off today than
two, three, five or ten years ago, then good for you. We can stop
this conversation right now, because you live in a different universe,
and it really doesn't matter what we discuss.
You can quote all the government statistics you want. Remember, the
government also says the CPI only went up 3% per year, yet three
staples--gasoline, milk and natural gas--all have risen nearly 100% in
the last couple of years. Health care premiums rose 35% between 2000
and 2004 alone.
I'm not going to argue with you anymore. If you think outsourcing is
good, then please, go to your local Union hall and shout it to the
rafters.
We'll send flowers.
Joe
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------------------------------
message: 2
date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 13:39:12 -0600
from: Frank Marshall <keesman36@xxxxxxxxxxx>
subject: Re: [MIDRANGE-JOBS] MIDRANGE-JOBS Digest, Vol 5, Issue 184
You right Joe
When Corporate executives outsource job, cut health benefits, bail on
pension plans or slash workers to boost stock value they bring up the "Bogey
Man": Globalization. They claim they are forced into these positions by
competition from overseas. However, in the same breath they fight any
attempts to curb some of the practices that cause unfair trade. It isn't
capitalism that is to blame it is how some executives game the system. Most
of this is a scam fortunately not everyone drank the kool aide.
Frank (retired programmer and lovin it.)
From: joepluta@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: midrange-jobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 13:14:12 -0600> Subject: Re: [MIDRANGE-JOBS]
MIDRANGE-JOBS Digest, Vol 5, Issue 184> > *** Please pay close
attention when replying to a message on this list!> *** If you want
the reply to go to the list, use REPLY-TO-ALL> *** Recruiters may
advertise only permanent employment positions in this list.> > > >
From: Alex Montalvo> > > > > > Let's face it the idea of capitalism
has run it's course it only worked> > when other people were unaware
they were being taken advantage of.> > > > Drink that in. Don't have
to answer all at once.> > LOL!> > And on THAT note, it's definitely
time to go. If you're suggesting that> some other economic system
other than enlightened self-interest (the bulwark> of Adam Smith's
pre-capitalist philosophies) is going to do better, then I> gotta
scoot.> > Socialism, perhaps?> > No, the problem is with capitalism is
not capitalism itself, but> multi-national cor
poratocracy and the 90-day stock market cycle which> undercuts the fabric
of competition. Just as the problem with democracy is> not democracy itself,
but instead the power of corporate lobbying which> we've seen so blatantly
exposed in the last year or so with the attempted> passage of so many
amnesty bills despite the clear disapproval of 80% of the> country.> >
Anyway, gotta run - it's getting political in here <grin>.> > Joe> > -- >
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