RE: CFINT/IBM's failure to provide AD tools -- MIDRANGE-L

<I have somehow accumulated 16 items in my Drafts folder.  I think it's
called lack of focus.  Sheesh...  If I've unintentionally neglected to reply
to someone's post, and it's important, please give me a reminder.>


Reeve, Greg

I agree, "well said".

And I agree this is the way it should be.


But I don't know that IBM can accomplish what you're looking for.  Like you
said, Software Group develops the AD Tools.  They're just a sister-company
of Server Group.  And they service all of IBM.  They do not, and may never,
understand the 400 like the original group that developed the RPGIII
compiler and AD Tools.  The integration of hardware and OS is still there.
But as you said, primarily due to the corporate structure of IBM, the
integration of hardware, OS, languanges and AD Tools is not there, like it
was.

Thus, the languages and AD tools come out of Toronto...  Now, these days,
distance means nothing, in theory.  In actual practice, your talking a wide
gap in mindset.  JMHO.  You should, in theory, be able to develop tools
seemlessly integrated with the OS, from talent gathered from all over the
world.  But in actual practice, I just don't see that kind of integration,
like the 38 had.

Maybe some day...?


But then again, the entire industry is waving the flags of Java, OSS, or M$.
So IBM puts their resources into what the entire industry is calling for.
Who, in the industry, is pointing to RPG as a viable option...?

Now I've been hearing about OSS saving the day an awful lot lately.  I've
been hearing about Java saving the day for years.  M$ (and OO) for
decades...  Personally, I'm still waiting for all this to get sorted out.

But what I don't hear mentioned much, is RPG.. in the industry.  So IBM
reacted by turning RPG into C (keeping the strong I/O features)...  I
certainly don't blame IBM.. It's their job to both go with, and lead, the
industry trends.  I don't know that I agree with it, but that's where the
industry keeps pointing towards.

jt

> -----Original Message-----
> From: midrange-l-admin@midrange.com
> [mailto:midrange-l-admin@midrange.com]On Behalf Of Greg Day
> Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 10:51 PM
> To: midrange-l@midrange.com
> Subject: Re: CFINT/IBM's failure to provide AD tools
>
>
> Well said Reeve
>
>
> >From: "Reeve Fritchman" <reeve@ltl400.com>
> >Reply-To: midrange-l@midrange.com
> >To: <midrange-l@midrange.com>
> >Subject: CFINT/IBM's failure to provide AD tools
> >Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 20:09:23 -0500
> >
> >You offer interesting ideas.  However, as a software vendor, I'm not
> >completely free to choose the "best" tools; our customers might not agree
> >with our choices and usually are resistant to buying additional
> supporting
> >applications.  So we stick with a meat-and-potatoes environment where
> >green-screen is extremely effective and stable (lots of remote
> >locations)...and we don't have the resources to support dabbling.  We're
> >extremely focused on the business requirements of our
> application and find
> >that challenging enough.
> >
> >Having working in the midrange environment since the days of the
> System/3,
> >I'm used to having IBM provide a decent development environment.  After
> >all,
> >it is a source of revenue and it could help IBM focus customers
> on certain
> >technologies, but IBM's green-screen world hasn't been a very interesting
> >target for 3rd party AD tools developers.  With the iSeries becoming a
> >server, a wide range of 3rd party tools becomes available for working in
> >the
> >server world.  We hear about the "integrated" nature of the iSeries; why
> >are
> >compilers and AD tools are developed by a non-Rochester-owned
> division?   I
> >think IBM's missing a monster opportunity for revenue growth and customer
> >management by failing to coordinate hardware, OS/400, and AD tools.
> >WDT/400
> >is "free"?  Who cares?  I'll pay thousands for the right tools; I just
> >can't
> >find them (after this post hits, I'll bet they find me).
> >
> >If IBM wants us into the server environment (okay, they do),
> they can lead
> >(AD tools) or push (CFINT).  There are a number of vendors with report
> >writers, AD tools, green-to-GUI utilities, etc., and it looks
> like there's
> >plenty of room in the marketplace.  I remain disappointed that
> IBM lags so
> >far behind; IBM should have had a complete suite of killer tools ready to
> >go
> >the day they announced the IFS.
> >
> >Sorry, this is a sore point for me...I'll get off my soapbox now.
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: midrange-l-admin@midrange.com
> >[mailto:midrange-l-admin@midrange.com]On
> >Behalf Of Jim Damato
> >Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 6:54 PM
> >To: 'midrange-l@midrange.com'
> >Subject: RE: Tiger Tools
> >
> > >  Reeve:
> > >The whole CFINT thing comes back to IBM's failure to provide the
> >Application
> > >Development tools necessary to move out of the 5250 environment.
> >
> >I don't really understand this.  Moving out of the 5250 environment means
> >moving out of the mini-computer or baby-mainframe terminal based
> >environment
> >and using the AS/400 as a server.  The architecture changes to
> >client-server, n-tier or web-based design.  If I implement a Unix server
> >with an Oracle database I'm not necessarily depending on my Unix provider
> >or
> >Oracle for Application Development tools.  Development is based
> more on my
> >client, app server, or web platform of choice, and many of those
> >development
> >solutions are third-party.  Right now we're dabbling in developing apps
> >against Oracle on HP/UX using Microsoft VB, IIS, Crystal
> Reports, and Toad
> >for database scripting.  If we were developing these apps against the
> >AS/400
> >server I might be looking at similar tools for the front end,
> replacing the
> >SQL Net client with OLE-DB or some home grown data interface modules.
> >
> >CFINT is, to me, distasteful because it overprices the 5250
> environment or
> >underprices the server environment, and because IBM has been deliberately
> >deceptive about the nature of Interactive Feature.  It would be
> >interesting,
> >however, to see if iSeries servers without Interactive Feature were
> >profitable on their own.  Some of IBM's own statements suggest
> that legacy
> >customers are carrying iSeries server customers.  It's like
> they're saying
> >that their statement of direction is to push the iSeries toward
> eventually
> >losing money on every sale.
> >
> >Still, I don't think you should be looking to IBM to produce the
> tools for
> >your application development.
> >
> >-Jim
> >
> >James P. Damato
> >Manager - Technical Administration
> >Dollar General Corporation
> ><mailto:jdamato@dollargeneral.com>
> >_______________________________________________
> >This is the Midrange Systems Technical Discussion (MIDRANGE-L)
> mailing list
> >To post a message email: MIDRANGE-L@midrange.com
> >To subscribe, unsubscribe, or change list options,
> >visit: http://lists.midrange.com/cgi-bin/listinfo/midrange-l
> >or email: MIDRANGE-L-request@midrange.com
> >Before posting, please take a moment to review the archives
> >at http://archive.midrange.com/midrange-l.
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >This is the Midrange Systems Technical Discussion (MIDRANGE-L)
> mailing list
> >To post a message email: MIDRANGE-L@midrange.com
> >To subscribe, unsubscribe, or change list options,
> >visit: http://lists.midrange.com/cgi-bin/listinfo/midrange-l
> >or email: MIDRANGE-L-request@midrange.com
> >Before posting, please take a moment to review the archives
> >at http://archive.midrange.com/midrange-l.
> >
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
>
> _______________________________________________
> This is the Midrange Systems Technical Discussion (MIDRANGE-L)
> mailing list
> To post a message email: MIDRANGE-L@midrange.com
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or change list options,
> visit: http://lists.midrange.com/cgi-bin/listinfo/midrange-l
> or email: MIDRANGE-L-request@midrange.com
> Before posting, please take a moment to review the archives
> at http://archive.midrange.com/midrange-l.
>