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Re: Hostile environment to young IT Yes. They are hired in a shop for their non-RPG skills (as well as their understanding of RPG)..yet the "lifer" (for lack of a better term) programmers are highly resistant to the young folks programming in anything other than RPG and lean on management to make them toe what they perceive as the company line -----Original Message----- From: midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of DeLong, Eric Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 2:08 PM To: 'Midrange Systems Technical Discussion' Subject: RE: Did we have another name change? John, By no means am I saying to adopt every technology that comes along. That's not the point at all. I just saw Michael's post, and he seems to have understood what I'm saying... Take a benign topic, such as modularization. I've never met anyone that doesn't agree that modular designs have distinct advantages over conventional top-to-bottom applications. There's not much to argue about in that... Yet these same individuals will scream long and loud at the notion of adopting ILE, even though they know it brings benefit to them. They say they don't understand the technology, and have no time to learn it, so don't use it. They issue the mandate to not use a technology before they understand what they're dealing with... It's not a problem with having persuasive arguments, its about the decision and policy makers absolutely refusing to consider something that they see as foreign. The article Scott Ingvaldson posted is a perfect example... Thanks Scott! Somewhere along the line, risk aversion has become a mandate from above. Anything new should be avoided, because it may affect the applications in unforseen ways. (That's fear of the unknown at work...) I think it's fair to say that for any problem, there are probably hundreds (or thousands) of effective solutions, and it's often difficult to know which solution should win out. I'll go further to state that even though it's technically possible to write CGI in RPG/400, it's a solution that will be difficult to develop and maintain in the long term. ILE serves as a better enabler for these types of applications, but many shops are denied this approach because the shop standards and practices have not been updated for twenty years. Force someone to work with ineffective tools, and you usually wind up with ineffective results. My original point was that such environments are hostile to young IT workers. We gripe at IBM for not fostering more educational offerings to entice students into the platform, but even if they get skills, they're rarely allowed to use them. With no opportunities to shine, they'll either move on (to another platform, perhaps) or they'll lose their passion and die on the vine..... Either way, we all lose in the long run. Eric DeLong Sally Beauty Company MIS-Project Manager (BSG) 940-297-2863 or ext. 1863 -----Original Message----- From: midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Jones, John (US) Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2006 4:08 PM To: Midrange Systems Technical Discussion Subject: RE: Did we have another name change? Lou is right. We IT professionals need to be concerned about doing what is best for our employer. That is what we're paid to do. We're (in most cases) not paid to usher in a technology revolution. IT does not exist for IT's sake. That's not to say we shouldn't be concerned about adopting new technologies. We should be. But there has to be a business case to change otherwise it is simply wasting company resources. John A. Jones, CISSP Americas Information Security Officer Jones Lang LaSalle, Inc. V: +1-630-455-2787 F: +1-312-601-1782 john.jones@xxxxxxxxxx -----Original Message----- From: midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Lou Forlini Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2006 2:42 PM To: Midrange Systems Technical Discussion Subject: RE: Did we have another name change? Eric, I don't know if I'm disagreeing with you or not. Probably more with your comments regarding older people. I think you could take the statement "most midrange shops adopt this ambivalence to change", take out the word "midrange" and have it still be true for most shops in any industry, IT or not. I learned that pretty early on myself. When I've worked at companies that were reluctant to try new technologies, I've always found it a good idea to work up a brief business case and present it to the boss. More times than not, showing how something could benefit the company (and not just my own career) got me the go ahead for a pilot project, or for integration into a new or revised system. Sometimes not right away, but the seed was planted and when the time was right I was the "go to" guy. This approach requires a certain level of professionalism, i.e. you need to have the discipline to think through the benefits to the company, and articulate them in a clear and persuasive way, versus just whining constantly about not being able to use ILE. Show that you're about using technology to benefit the company, rather than using technology to pad your resume. Follow that path, and quite often you will eventually work yourself into a position to actually influence and even determine what technologies are used at your company. I've done it twice, ending up in Chief Engineer type positions. Yes, you will run into that shop where you're hitting a brick wall with every suggestion, and even the most beneficial changes will be denied for whatever reason. Once you've given it a fair shot, leave. Eventually, you may get to a place where you feel the desire to explore technologies that would not necessarily benefit the company you work for, or any likely prospects. Maybe you can make a deal to work after hours on your own time to learn them. If not, maybe it's time to start your own company. Part of the advantage to the AS/400-iSeries-i5-System_i is it's longevity, it's an incredibly mature, robust, and secure operating system. In an industry where tossing out all your gear every 3 or 4 years (and many times the people as well) is the norm, it can also be a liability. That's the challenge. Regards, - Lou Forlini Software Engineer System Support Products, Inc. At 1:53 PM -0500 4/13/06, DeLong, Eric wrote: >No Lou, I'm talking about shutting out new talent and innovation >because of fear or laziness. I'm no newbie to this platform, having >started with the >S/36 while in high school. My entire career is based on midrange, and >I love our platform. But I've NEVER worked for a shop where I didn't >have to fight (sometimes in peril of losing my job) for the adoption of >new technology. > >I know that not all shops work this way, but I believe (based on MY >experiences) that most midrange shops adopt this ambivalence to change. >I have felt frustrated by this again and again, and feel that this >attitude is killing our platform.... > >Ageist? Perhaps.... Again, in my experience, the senior exec(s) in IT >sets the tone and direction of the shop. If the tone comes across as >"do it the way we've always done it", then innovation is immediately eliminated.... > >I know my original post was worded to be somewhat offensive. I'll >apologize for that, but I stand by my notion that we "professionals" >need to be more accepting of new ideas. We need to dazzle the young >talent with possibilities instead of forcing them into submission. We >must accept that what we did in 1986 is not applicable to today's application consumers. -- This is the Midrange Systems Technical Discussion (MIDRANGE-L) mailing list To post a message email: MIDRANGE-L@xxxxxxxxxxxx To subscribe, unsubscribe, or change list options, visit: http://lists.midrange.com/mailman/listinfo/midrange-l or email: MIDRANGE-L-request@xxxxxxxxxxxx Before posting, please take a moment to review the archives at http://archive.midrange.com/midrange-l. This email is for the use of the intended recipient(s) only. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender immediately and then delete it. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not keep, use, disclose, copy or distribute this email without the author's prior permission. 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