Re: Platform Independence (was George is Farr from where we want tobe) -- MIDRANGE-L

Aaron,

I am having mixed feeling about this whole topic because there are somany nuances to investigate that finding a simple solution seemsimpossible to me. Backing up a second and looking at the System i inrelation to all other platforms, I think we all agree that it issoftware ("solutions") that sells the system. That is, it is very hardto just lead with the platform and then sell a software application togo with it. However, when someone is looking for a software packagethey have folks in the IT department recommending that they stick withsomething that runs on their current platform(s). I work primarily withschool districts and outside of the System i's I deal with it isprobably about 90% Wintel and perhaps 10% Linux/Mac (mostly Mac). So ifI am developing an application I have a choice of whether to develop anapplication that will run ONLY on the System i (read: RPG) or develop itto run on any of the platforms at the school district. In thisenvironment I could chose any approach and still be OK. In fact, for mySystem i shops I probably have 40% of my apps written with or usingSystem i centric languages or platform specific middleware, 40% where itcould be running on any platform and 20% that is Microsoft centric. Iam OK with that and, in fact, I love that environment because I can usea broad range of skills and technologies to solve problems.

But, from a business viability point of view, I am in a bit of aquandary. There are approximately 25,000 school districts out there andI am going to WAG that only 500 or so have System i's. So when I writean application, do I write an application that has a potential market of25k or of 500? Instinct tells me to go for the broader market. Don'tget me wrong, there is nothing wrong with "specializing" in System i.In fact, I became an System i reseller so I could package and sell aSystem i with my solution. However, selling a System i into a Wintelshop is a challenge. Even if you can sell them on System i stabilityand reliability, you have a "value" issue when they compare to Wintel.In short, the battle is all uphill. Further, IBM has made the wholeprocess of becoming a "small" System i reseller so difficult that in theend the energy expended just doesn't seem worth it. It is much easierIMHO to write in Java or PHP and lead with a System i for hardware butif you lose that battle you can still get the sale with something thatis platform independent.

Nobody has to sell me on the value of a System i, in some ways I amblinded by my love of the platform, but that perspective comes frombeing on the platform for 20 years. Folks who are new to the System iare a much harder sale. Not impossible, just harder to sell. I guessif I was a crack salesman myself or could find a sales person that couldeasily sell a System i, I wouldn't sweat the platform independence.However, my experience has been it isn't all that easy to get a System iinto an existing Wintel, Linux or Mac shop for all of the reasons thathave been floated on this list.

So, my vote for a platform independent approach isn't based ontechnology, just business. Just generating a GUI app on a System i isn'tgoing to guarantee success. The challenge will be to displace Wintelservers with System i's and it will take more than just a GUI to dothat. If anything *could* easily displace a Wintel server it would be akiller app that is ONLY available on a System i. Finding that app willbe about as easy as finding the Holy Grail.


Pete Helgren


albartell wrote:

... but I have heard of way to many System i systems or applications being

replaced because they are not modern/gui/whatever.  Given that, doesn't
something have to change?  And how should it be accomplished?

That is EXACTLY what I am talking about in my rant to George.  IBM is trying
to introduce us to COMPLETELY new languages (Java/EGL) and servers (WAS).
Changing to those vs. modifying RPG to meet the same need is where I think
they have gone wrong.  The change needs to happen to the RPG
language/platform and not through new introduction.  Sure they are making
consistent changes to RPG (small changes here and there), but they have
ignored the big elephant in the room of us needing RPG native ways to do web

programming and RPG native thick client interfaces.

Thanks Mike,
Aaron Bartell

-----Original Message-----
From: midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Crump, Mike
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 11:13 AM
To: Midrange Systems Technical Discussion
Subject: RE: Platform Independence (was George is Farr from where we want
tobe)

Aaron,

I would definitely say that with any of the modern language environments
that the risk of 'performance' problems is much higher than it is with our
working languages.  "your mileage may vary"  "buyer beware" "it depends" are
definite terms to be used when going down this road.

Don't forget that within the RPG world we have decades of experience and the
learning was typically done at a nice pace (read linear).  Today the people
using JAVA (even if they are knowledgeable) probably won't get to the same
level of comfort for quite a while.  And the expectations are that they pick
this up in a exponential fashion.

I know this goes to your point but the best JAVA programmers are the guys
who have been doing C or C++ programming for decades.  Same with .NET
weenies.  The complexity transition to any new technology is not to be
trivialized. The ripple effect is a nice way to put it.  Seems to be it some
where between a ripple and a rogue wave.  The administration of this is even

more complex. And problem determination?

Generally, I agree with most points but I'm not necessarily willing to damn
the new technologies.  There is a need and a fit out there.  Change for the
sake of change is never good but I have heard of way to many System i
systems or applications being replaced because they are not
modern/gui/whatever.  Given that, doesn't something have to change?  And how
should it be accomplished?

Michael Crump

Manager, Computing Services

Saint-Gobain Containers, Inc.
1509 S. Macedonia Ave.
Muncie, IN  47302
765.741.7696

765.741.7012 f

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-----Original Message-----

From: midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of albartell
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 9:56 AM
To: 'Midrange Systems Technical Discussion'
Subject: RE: Platform Independence (was George is Farr from where we want
tobe)

in essence implemented on a system that is already running a decent

workload, does not have enough memory, is utilizing an older processor, is
not written very well, etc.

Interestingly enough, these are all things that we "can get away with"
when
coding RPG.  Yes an RPG program can still kill a system, but I think that
happens much less often than in the Java environment.  I didn't put the word
"scholarly" in there simply because I was lacking word choice.  You have to
know A LOT about the ins and outs of Java components to 'get it right'
when
creating a large application with the potential for a lot of concurrent
users.  In RPG you are there much quicker.

Good to hear about your other failures to successes with Java. I don't hear

much of the successes believe it or not.  But like you commented in #1, a
lot of these things could/should simply be implemented in RPG as that is the
language most shops support.  Introducing a new language into the mix in any
shop has MANY ripple effects (think QA, Support, Training, Debugging, Split
knowledge on multiple platforms, etc)

Thanks for your comments Mike,
Aaron Bartell

-----Original Message-----
From: midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Crump, Mike
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 8:33 AM
To: Midrange Systems Technical Discussion
Subject: RE: Platform Independence (was George is Farr from where we want
tobe)

Platform independence?  Not very.  We use JAVA more so to allow for using
the ubiquitous browser and for independence from MS.

Although, I would also have to respectfully disagree with some of Aaron's
points.  While I would not argue that plenty of people have horror stories
regarding native Java performance I think that you will find a lot of them
are of there own making - in essence implemented on a system that is already
running a decent workload, does not have enough memory, is utilizing an
older processor, is not written very well, etc.

1.)  We have a native JAVA program that processes our finite scheduling
system.  This is program that does a lot of IO and I argued up front that it
should have never been written in Java because it was a classic fit for RPG.
I lost but I will have to say that application runs blazingly fast and
processes many functions and millions of records.  I doubt that we would see
any improvement if it was converted to RPG.  In addition, by most testing it
is as fast as running it on an independent WINTEL platform.  I have compared
it run wise on our i5 to an IXS system (to eliminate remote database
issues)
and there is no comparison.  Right now, I am not in the position to test on
a faster Bladecenter type of unit but perhaps in the future.  The database
is remote to the native application as well.

2.)  We originally implemented WAS (v3) on a 720 years ago.  80% of the
application runs perfectly fine but certain components were a dog.
Processor was not being taxed, we were not short of memory, we just did not
have the processor crank and L2 cache that the application needed.
Shortly thereafter we upgraded to an 825 and 100% of the application ran
fine.  A classic example of implementing Java in a not so perfect platform.
I would argue that as we have climbed the server ladder 7xx, 8xx, 5xx the
potential for this problem has decreased.

3.)  We run WAS and WPS on our 570's and generally speaking these guys
perform very well.  Our major complaint on WPS comes from portlets that we

rely on our parent company for and their responsiveness is not very good.

4.)  The native JVM can be a resource hog.  That is why the J9 was invented.
Certain machines and customers should not be running the native JVM.
They
do not have the horse for it.  Is it a problem with the native JVM?
Perhaps.  I would just argue that it is as much environmental as it is
platform.

I cannot argue with the complexity.  However, I think that this is not a
JAVA problem only.  Every existing 'modern' application is much more complex
than the traditional RPG model.  Whether it is Java, .NET, Domino, etc.
I
think that they are much more complicated either in architecture or in
resulting code length.

Michael Crump

Manager, Computing Services

Saint-Gobain Containers, Inc.
1509 S. Macedonia Ave.
Muncie, IN  47302
765.741.7696

765.741.7012 f

Cluelessness

There are no stupid questions, but there are a LOT of inquisitive idiots.This email and its attachments may be confidential and are intended solely

for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions
expressed are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent
those of Saint-Gobain.  If it did, it would be folded, mutilated, watered
down, politically corrected, and would show up a week later if at all.
If
you are not the intended recipient of this email and its attachments, you
must take no action based upon them, nor must you copy or show them to
anyone.
Please contact the sender if you believe you have received this email in
error.

-----Original Message-----

From: midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Michael Ryan
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 8:10 AM
To: Midrange Systems Technical Discussion
Subject: Platform Independence (was George is Farr from where we want to
be)

How important is platform independence to the community? It has little
importance to me. I believe RPG is the best language on iSeries, and I don't
need to write the same code to run on multiple platforms. I *do* write code
on multiple platforms (VB and C on Wintel), but I don't expect or want to
run the *same* code on other platforms.

On 3/28/07, albartell <albartell@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

While in that session I was very close to asking the group whether

they gave

a rip about platform independence.

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