RE: 4GL's -- MIDRANGE-L

What you're describing is the use of XMLHttpRequest objects in
javascript. Web 2.0 is more of a "social experience" model usually
exemplified by MySpace but also including blogs and mash-ups.

There are few javascript libraries available now that include
XMLHttpRequest based widgets. Those libraries are only loosely tied to
any server-based development environment. None of them that I know of
are tied to any kind of RPG development environment.

-----Original Message-----
From: midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Charles Wilt
Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 8:38 AM
To: Midrange Systems Technical Discussion
Subject: Re: 4GL's

Technically, Web 2.0, Ajax, RUI whatever you call it goes back to the
server _more_ often than the original way of doing things.

The difference is that the entire _page_ is not sent each time with a
Web 2.0 type application. Instead of having to refresh the entire page
for any action as with Web 1.0, with Web 2.0 you can simply update a
small section of the page.

Charles

On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 9:26 AM, Jeff Crosby <jlcrosby@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

By Web 2.0, I mean fast data entry, or what IBM calls RUI (Rich User
Interface). Don't have to go back to the server every mouse click or
field tab.

Make sense?

--
Jeff Crosby
UniPro Foodservice/Dilgard
260-422-7531
Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my company.

Unless I say so.

Jim Franz wrote:

But until the business
wants everything webified, it's a no go.

What made this customer take that leap was the idea of a cheap form
of CRM - review existing orders, place new orders, reprint statements

(pdf), many other reports and downloads- all things they used to call

on the phone or fax and tie up inhouse users.
At the time, 95% of orders were faxed in, and inhouse users entered
into system. Now 65% of orders are web entered by customer, greatly
shifting the workload. Customers love the 24x7x365 access to their
information. We regularly have customers on at 4 to 5am entering
orders because it fits their schedule. I would say using this tool
took 60% off the time to build and deploy. This was the largest
project this company ever did (2 mths) - this is a very small

company.

The main in-house apps are still rpg/dds based. They won't convert
them till they see a business savings to do so. All of the requests
to IT are about functionality, analysis, and saving time.

Does Websmart do what I think is referred to as Web 2.0?

yes (but define exactly what you mean. Web 2.0 to me is a buzz word,
often pointing to things the web has done for years.

Jim Franz

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Crosby" <jlcrosby@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "Midrange Systems Technical Discussion" <midrange-l@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 7:56 AM
Subject: Re: 4GL's

I've looked at Websmart in the past, at COMMON I believe - but it's
been quite a while. At the time I looked no one here was making
noises about webifying. Now they are, if only slightly. Taking all

my ProGen development into Websmart is A Big Deal. I've been asking

for that since the first time I heard about Websmart. But until the

business wants everything webified, it's a no go.

I tried Clover as a replacement for Query/400 a while back and was
disappointed. Not really for end users.

Does Websmart do what I think is referred to as Web 2.0?

--
Jeff Crosby
UniPro Foodservice/Dilgard
260-422-7531
Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my

company.

Unless I say so.

Jim Franz wrote:

If I ever convince both myself and the powers that be here that we

must "webify" everything, I have no intention whatsoever of
learning the nitty gritty details of HTML, JSF, J2EE, etc. There
will have to be something that does for "webifying" that ProGen
Plus did for subfile

..
BCD (the same people who brought you ProGen) have Websmart - the
same concept - you work in a easy to learn psuedo code, and other
than debug, no need to ever look at the generated code. However,
Websmart's generated ile rpg is very readable & clear. They have
many advanced features inside the tool to build a fully functional
web applications, and connections to many other BCD tools (portal,
analysis tool, etc), plus a php option rather than rpgle.
I have no problem with 4gl tools that can build real business apps
and be manageable and maintainable.
Now they have a tool to pull your rpg & dds into their Websmart

format.

Jim Franz
(using websmart at a customer for 9 years)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Crosby" <jlcrosby@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "Midrange Systems Technical Discussion"
<midrange-l@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2008 5:09 PM
Subject: Re: 4GL's

I have to chime in a bit here. Many many years ago I went with
ProGen Plus from BCD for generating subfile programs. For a
couple of years after that, I was worried because I could no
longer write a subfile program from scratch. I got over that. I
couldn't care less how to do one from scratch. ProGen Plus does
everything I need in the way of subfiles in literally 1/10 the
time. I care not one whit for all that plumbing.

If I ever convince both myself and the powers that be here that we

must "webify" everything, I have no intention whatsoever of
learning the nitty gritty details of HTML, JSF, J2EE, etc. There
will have to be something that does for "webifying" that ProGen
Plus did for subfile programs. I am not a computer geek that
works for a business, I am a businessman who likes to use

computers to solve business problems.

Last week and next week I am attending an online web class (free)
put on by IBM about EGL I'm spending 6+ hours a day hands on
finding out/learning what I can about EGL. The depth and breadth
of what EGL does is astonishing and I've only scratched the
surface. I don't even know enough yet to be dangerous. The
powerpoint for the first class alone is over 1,000 pages.

Both Joe Pluta's ("international authority on System i technology
and
EGL") and Pete Helgren's names are mentioned on the foils. I
don't know if EGL will be for us, but it is indeed impressive.

--
Jeff Crosby
UniPro Foodservice/Dilgard
260-422-7531
Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my

company.

Unless I say so.

Joe Pluta wrote:

david gibbs wrote:

You're 80% of the way there.

You are correct ... I don't trust generated code any further
than I can spit it. I far prefer to use code that I wrote or at

least can reasonably maintain myself (which is why I'm not
adverse to using a code Wizard to create a starting point).

I understand this point. But I hope you agree this is purely a
personal stand - David Gibbs prefers rolling his own, although he

will accept help from the friendly Wizard <grin>. I understand
that position, and even agree wherever practical. However, I
hope you'll also agree that lots of shops don't have the time to
address their application backlog, much less rewrite existing
plumbing code, and that there are valid business situations to
use proprietary and/or generated code. We all rely on code we
cannot maintain to one degree or another, especially those of us
who use Windows (much less those who program for it).

So, the idea that the code is generated shouldn't be a
showstopper for everyone, even if it is for you. For people who
don't have the time to reinvent or even reimplement the wheel,
generated code can actually be a positive thing because it allows

them to concentrate on the business logic rather than the
plumbing.

The rest of my dislike is half the quality of the code they
generate ...
and half being tied to a single companies product to generate
the code.
Heaven help the company who used a code generator to develop a
major application ... have the generator's author go out of
business ... and then have something go wrong with the generator

due to an OS upgrade.

Yes, in the case of EGL, I know the likelihood of this happening

is vanishingly slim ... but not with other products.

So you agree that your other issue is one that really doesn't
apply as much to EGL.

Let me pose a question: do you think there's a larger contingency

within IBM backing EGL or RPG? I know it's not quite an
apples-to-apples comparison, since RPG is likely to be around as
long as the platform, but I'm just pointing out that EGL has as
large a commitment from IBM as anything. Rational has its own
conference, and it's a big one. EGL is prominent there, and
getting moreso.

I guess I'm saying that while the idea of EGL (or indeed any
technology)
being orphaned is not a completely unjustifiable concern, it's
harder to justify when your primary development choice is RPG and

the i.

Joe

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