RE: backups on AS/400; part2 -- MIDRANGE-L


I'm treading on thin ice here since I've always worked in shops with
24x7 operations...

The last time I retrieved the source for the GO SAVE option 21 it
consisted of:

SAVSYS
SAVLIB *NONSYS
SAVDLO
SAV

Couldn't you create a batch subsystem "SPARKy" with it's own jobd, jobq,
etc. and create a backup script to be run from the console?  You'd bring
the system to it's restricted state then bring up only subsystem SPARKY
and submit a CL to SPARKY's queue that would run the equivalent of the
save option 21.  The last steps in the CL would be to bring bring down
SPARKY and bring up the whole system.  Once submitted you could sign off
and go home.

I'm sure I'm oversimplifying.  The one weak link has got to be "bring
the system to it's restricted state then bring up only subsystem
SPARKY", since I'm unsure if you could start that subsystem from the
restricted state.  If I still had a spare AS/400 to play with I'd try to
work out how to bring the system from a restricted state to a "minimally
unrestricted state" with no TCP/IP, network services, interactive
subsystem, QSPL, etc -- just SPARKY.  Perhaps you could code your system
startup script to conditionally bypass bringing up most of the good
stuff based on a mode bit or flag in a data area.  Then you would either
start QCTL in backup mode or normal mode.

We're at the point where we need to gut the Save option 21 anyway.  It
takes too long with all our data.  I'm gonna have to figure out if I
really know what I'm talking about so that I can split the SAVLIB
*NONSYS into two batch streams to two 3590 tape drives.

I'll let you know if it's easy, or if it's Advanced AS/400 System
Administration.

-Jim

Manager - Technical Administration
Dollar General Corporation
<mailto:jdamato@dollargeneral.com>

-----Original Message-----
From: D.BALE@handleman.com
To: MIDRANGE-L@midrange.com
Sent: 5/25/01 5:06 PM
Subject: RE: backups on AS/400; part2

Well, H*LL YES, Jim, we AS/400 bigots *ARE* spoiled, I freely admit.
Unlike
yourself, some of us have no idea of the headaches involved in managing
other
platforms, although managing my own Windows desktop makes me very
thankful for
the reliability and relative ease-of-use of the AS/400.

Although I have a clue based on the system problems that are broadcast
throughout the company email - "Database AB-123 has to be reloaded." or
"The
Oracle Financial system has crashed and will be unavailable until
further
notice."  These type of messages come at us several times weekly.  I've
never
seen one for our AS/400 systems in the 9 months I've been here.

But I digress.  "Do we expect too much?" you ask.  Yes, you see a lot of
griping about IBM on this list sometimes, some of it valid, and others,
well,
everybody has a soap box, right?  Better to have high expectations than
to
live with the expectations we all put up with something like Windows.
"Hey,
no Windows BSOD today?  Today was a good day, indeed!  Wait til I tell
my
friends!"  Sorry, got on the reliability track again.

In regards to the idea of being able to perform a reliable,
"guaranteed", CYA
backup and being constrained to having to do it interactively at the
system
console, well there's just no way around that, according to IBM.  (Al
Barsa
has informed me that TAA tools does, in fact, have a save function that
would
help out here.)  I've already mentioned the plight of being a small shop
without a night operator.  IBM has to know that there are a lot of these
type
of sites out there.  Maybe they're just too small for IBM to lose any
sleep
over the possibility of losing them as a customer?  Why is it so
difficult to
do this properly?  IBM recommends SAVE 21 as the "complete" backup.  You
must
do it in a dedicated state and do it interactively.  Knowing that, does
IBM
expect everyone to follow this critical recommendation on a regular
basis?

- Dan
Dan Bale says "BAN DALE!"
IT - AS/400
Handleman Company
248-362-4400  Ext. 4952
D.Bale@Handleman.com
  Quiquid latine dictum sit altum viditur.
  (Whatever is said in Latin seems profound.)

-------------------------- Original Message --------------------------
As a seasoned AS/400 bigot who has recently been asked to manage Unix
systems I find myself on the fence on these issues.  It drives me crazy
that
every time we change a drive in our HP tape library my Unix
Administrator
has to drop everything and reconfigure the backups.  The layered
software
for configuring backups requires that we do it at the correct moment in
time
-- it's not even possible to rewrite the backup in anticipation of
changes.
And don't even talk to me about degree of training necessary to set up a
good Oracle backup.

On the other hand it's starting to surprise me how much we expect OS/400
to
do for us.  GO SAVE option 21 is just a CL program.  AS/400
documentation
provides a nice poster explaining the different levels of backups, and
the
SAV* commands allow you to design backups from a conceptual (or object
based) point of view rather than chasing down disks, volumes, and
directories.  I don't think you have to be a certified AS/400 Sys Admin
to
design an effective backup.  My relatively untrained AS/400-VMS Admin
came
up with a good CL to save data libraries, including SAVACT in pretty
short
order.

Maybe I'm biased because I've always worked in very large shops.  I
don't
think it's unreasonable to expect customers to live within the
constraints
of the canned options or write their own customizations.  The menu
options
on the AS/400 evolved from next to nothing over the past decade or so.
I
always looked at them as "serving suggestions".


Or maybe I'm just cranky because it's been a long week.

James Damato
Manager - Technical Administration
Dollar General Corporation
<mailto:jdamato@dollargeneral.com>


-----Original Message-----
From: D.BALE@handleman.com [mailto:D.BALE@handleman.com]
Sent: Friday, May 25, 2001 12:13 PM
To: MIDRANGE-L@midrange.com
Subject: Re: backups on AS/400; part2


Al, maybe you've been around the block way too many times to count on
this
issue, but what's your take on the fact that a SAVE 21 type of save, one
requiring a dedicated system with all subsystems ended, must be run
interactively from the system console?  I find it ridiculous that, after
all
these years, IBM still has not given us a solution to this gaping hole.
Do
others feel that way?  Most shops I know of can only do a dedicated
system
backup (which, IMHO, is the only sane way to do a backup; your comments
on
SWA
considered) off hours in the middle of the night, and the only way I've
been
able to figure out how to accomplish this is to sign on to the console
prior
to leaving for the day and start the backup application that waits until
late
at night to start the ENDSBS *ALL and run the backup.  Most AS/400 shops
aren't big enough to be able to justify the expense of a night operator.
The
so-called way to secure this is to lock the console using the key on the
display.  It would seem to be a no-brainer (well, consider who's talking
here,
o.k.?) to allow a batch job to run from the controlling subsystem in a
restricted state.  But what do I know?

I have taken a renewed interest in this pet peeve of mine, considering
my
new
responsibilities.

- Dan
Dan Bale says "BAN DALE!"
IT - AS/400
Handleman Company
248-362-4400  Ext. 4952
D.Bale@Handleman.com
  Quiquid latine dictum sit altum viditur.
  (Whatever is said in Latin seems profound.)
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