RE: More about struts -- WEB400

> From: David Morris
> 
> Servlets and JSP are
> without MVC is similar to RPGIV without 
> service programs or display files

JSP can be written quite well without Struts.  I've been doing it for
years.  Your two analogies are rather incongruous.  Green screen RPG
applications cannot (for all normal intents and purposes) be written
without display files, while at the same time applications can be
written quite successfully without service programs.  But Struts is
neither.  Struts is AS/SET.  It generates stuff quickly, and if you can
live in its paradigm, great.


> -- the first program goes
> quickly then you hit an error or realize that the
> script code you copied and used on the last 50
> pages is flawed.

If you copy stuff to 50 pages without testing it, then you deserve what
you get.  Then again, in my experience, I only use about five different
basic scriptlets.  They might even make sense for custom tags, except
that custom tags are even less palatable to me than "standard" taglibs.


> I guess it boils down to this. I believe that iSeries
> developers are better off using Struts and tags than
> Servlets and scriptlets.

And I don't.  Opinions... everyone's got one.


> My experience has been that
> Struts encourages developers to build applications
> that are better structured, less error prone, and
> easier to maintain than Servlet/scriptlet based
> applications.

Ah. The old "language dictates program quality" boojum.  Please.  You
can write good or bad code in any syntax.


> The main value comes from good
> architecture that encourages developing to interfaces
> and reuseable components.

All my reusable code is in the servlets where it belongs.  The UI is
simply that - UI.  And it should never require the level of thought you
give to it.  It's as if you wanted to add modules and binding language
to display files.  Ugh!  


> Hibernate allows you to write platform
> independent code, take it or leave it, and it won't
> cost you any more than platform specific code.

Whatever.  Dude, I'm not going to argue with you.  You like it, great.
I don't.  Again, do what you think is best for your clients.  Me, I
never lock my clients into a technology that might not be around
tomorrow, and I'm USUALLY pretty good at picking which technologies have
legs.  We'll see, but my take is that Struts is on its way out.  Tiles
is already gone, Struts will follow.
 

> Your argument for the iSeries is much stronger if you
> can build your applications so that they run on any
> platform and you can demonstrate that they run better
> on the iSeries.

I find no merit in this statement.  The argument for the iSeries is that
it can do things no other platform can do, and writing lowest common
denominator logic with JDBC and one size fits all Open Source projects
is unlikely to ever show the iSeries to its benefit. It lowers the
platform to the also rans.  It's like saying I can show how good my
dragster is by running it on diesel and see how it performs against a
Volvo.


> If you don't do this someone who
> does not understand the value of the iSeries may
> make this argument for you.

Who's going to do that?  The guys that write MRP in Java?  Oh yeah, I
forgot... THERE ARE NONE.  Anyway, I love Java, but an average RPG
programmer can blow away just about any Java programmer when it comes to
writing business logic, so I'm not quite worried yet.  In fact, the
great bulk of systems written in RPG are not going to be phased out by
Source Forge code anytime soon.

In fact, I'll stick my neck out and make another prognostication: I
think the pendulum is starting to swing away from the "platform
independent" mantra, and I think you're going to see the REAL design -
which is BLIP (Business Logic Independent Programming).  Your user
interface will be platform (and device and presentation) independent,
and it will communicate via messages with a completely platform
dependent back end tuned to take advantage of the hardware it has.


Anyway, RPG programmers rock.  And if you wanna write your whole
application with those wonderful Open Source projects, then be my guest.
It'll be interesting to see what YOUR maintenance effort looks in five
years compared to mine.  But since this argument is really about your
chosen tools against my chosen tools, it borders on zealotry as they
always do.  But it just makes me a little nutty that you're pushing a
technology that even the users of the technology say is going away.


Joe