Re: native PHP in V5R4??? -- WEB400

3 cheers Big Bob, you have hit the problem right on the head. What you
reminds me of my experience with IBM when their think tank boys from
Stanford came to town to convince the IBM MAPICS people that it would be a
could idea take MAPICS to a DB design. What did management do - nothing and
as result of their late delivery of a AS400 friendly ERP lost market share
to the likes of PRC and Marcam.  

Keep up the good work and maybe if all of us woodpeckers keep at it we will
find some light in the tunnel.

Jack Derham
Direct Systems, Inc.

-----Original Message-----
From: web400-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:web400-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Bob Cozzi
Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2006 11:52 AM
To: 'Web Enabling the AS400 / iSeries'
Subject: Re: [WEB400] native PHP in V5R4???

I agree. But one problem I see is that IBM has no compelling
offering/products
for GUI-izing applications on which to build third-party software. If IBM
offers
WebFacing and HATS and then decides HATS is "better" (read more profitable)
that's the direction they point you. When that doesn't work that create a
list
of vendors who offer alternatives.
Why Microsoft succeeds in this third-party front, in my view, is because
they
often create a power platform on which to base third party software. So if
company X needs feature Y that isn't in the base product, they can buy it.
Similar to what you suggest IBM has done by identifying Joe's and other
products. 
Problem for us is that IBM's goal is often to create the template or model
and
than sit back and wait for the cash to roll in. When it does, great; when it
doesn't they restructure the template until the people involved either leave
IBM
or move to another area. 
When MS does it, they keep improving the product until it works for
customers
(often), or the bail out (rarely).
Take WDSC. Sure it is a powerful product. But it would have be a success 10
years ago if it ran in 1 megabyte of ram and people could actually have used
it
then. Today it would be the standard and even at 1 GB of ram would still be
a
success.  
It seems like IBM sales people continue to try to sell the Buckingham Palace
to
first time home buyers. The show you how you can get the palace and I'm sure
it
make perfect sense to IBM. But to the home buyer, it is just out of reach,
no
matter what IBM does.
Having said this, things may be changing for the better, but I look at is as
the
same old "how great it's going to be" pitches I've been seeing for the last
30
years in this business.

I love this box, I love RPG IV, I love what we can do with AJAX, CGI and RPG
IV.
In my view, they offer the best solution to OS/400 application modernization
thus far. Problem is, IBM keeps moving the goal post. 

-Bob Cozzi
www.RPGxTools.com
RPG xTools - Enjoy programming again.

-----Original Message-----
From: web400-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:web400-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf
Of albartell
Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2006 8:21 AM
To: 'Web Enabling the AS400 / iSeries'
Subject: Re: [WEB400] native PHP in V5R4???

>Aaron, your comment is the first one I've seen that actually refers to the
"Road map". Not a topic for this list, but it is interesting that someone
other than IBM or ex-IBM actually used it in a sentence. 

I think the way the Developer roadmap started out is what ruined it for a
lot of people. It was marketed like a treasure map "You are here with RPG,
and X marks the spot which is Java", and the road isn't done until you reach
the end of the map.

Now IBM is trying to change that to be "you are here (where ever that is,
most likely RPG) and listed on this roadmap are places of interest and exit
points".  I may be a little swayed because I had somebody at IBM explain it
to me that way, but nonetheless their _stated_ goal is to enable people to
find the right technology for their IT application modernization strategy.

The cool thing about the roadmap, that I believe they just added as of late,
is all the different vendors offering products for each "exit point" or
"point of interest" on the roadmap.  For instance, if you are looking to do
some application refacing you have more choices than just picking up on
IBM's Webfacing and instead can pick something like Joe's PSC400 product.

That's why this link is particularly interesting, because it shows all of
the players out there that are making a living taking 5250 to the masses in
GUI form. Where else can you find a company (IBM) that realized they were
losing market share and put together sites like this that allows third party
vendors to compete with their products (i.e. Webfacing) right on the same
page - one stop shopping.

http://www.developer.ibm.com/vic/hardware/portal/iii_pages/iii_tools_innov_e
nhance

Who knows.  Maybe I have been drinking too much kool-aid as of late and I am
a little off my rocker, but I can see a changed effort coming from IBM with
their modified roadmap and I think it has potential :-)

Aaron Bartell

-----Original Message-----
From: web400-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:web400-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Bob Cozzi
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 8:29 PM
To: 'Web Enabling the AS400 / iSeries'
Subject: Re: [WEB400] native PHP in V5R4???

PHP is a compelling thing and has been around for years. It can certainly be
used as a replacement for Net.Data--but porting net.data is problematic
(except by hand).

Aaron, your comment is the first one I've seen that actually refers to the
"Road map". Not a topic for this list, but it is interesting that someone
other than IBM or ex-IBM actually used it in a sentence.
 

-Bob Cozzi
www.RPGxTools.com
RPG xTools - Enjoy programming again.


-----Original Message-----
From: web400-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:web400-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of albartell
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 8:07 PM
To: 'Web Enabling the AS400 / iSeries'
Subject: Re: [WEB400] native PHP in V5R4???


PHP vs. RPG CGI is a toss up for me - I am a Java fan for web apps. Like you
said native access is HUGE and saves a lot of time. And then having a
language like PHP is really nice also where it was built with the web in
mind - it even is OO now which opens some new doors for abstract framework
building. 

It will be interesting if the iSeries dating PHP turns into marriage in the
next couple years. It is close, but it isn't "out-of-the-box ready" yet.

What would be really interesting is if IBM added PHP to the developer
roadmap. That would give it a lot more face time.

They could put it in the Application Refacing section here:
http://www.developer.ibm.com/vic/hardware/portal/iii_pages/iii_tools_innov_e
nhance


Aaron Bartell

-----Original Message-----
From: web400-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:web400-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Nathan Andelin
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 7:41 PM
To: Web Enabling the AS400 / iSeries
Subject: Re: [WEB400] native PHP in V5R4???

Aaron,
     
    My impression of   PHP is more favorable after following up on the links
you provided.  Smarty   looks like a good way of separating UI files from UI
control logic, and it looks   like PHP supports the development of modular
code.
     
    I'd hate to give   up the native database interface and superior
performance of RPG, but it   looks seems possible to write well structured
Web interfaces with   PHP.
    
  
    Nathan   Andelin
     
  
  

albartell <albartell@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:  I actually use mail.yahoo.com also
and agree with your speed assessment.
Maybe what I should have said is that PHP is definitely capable of being
used on huge sites, but should one.  :-)

 
>Performance   aside, the larger the application, the more unweildy a
scripting technology like   PHP becomes.
Could you expound on this for the sake of those that are thinking PHP is the
way to go on the iSeries? Of the PHP I have done I have liked it (not enough
to continue with it over Java though).  They have some nice tooling out
there (http://pear.php.net/, http://smarty.php.net/) that certainly
surpasses what we have with RPG CGI.

Thanks,
Aaron Bartell


                
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