Re: The responsive web site debate -- WEB400

<Aaron>Appreciate the link. Seem you and the author may be on good
terms. :) that's exactly the kind of things I'm looking for to help expand
and introduce new tech on the IBMi. I chuckled at the opening statement.
Accurate indeed.

***
Regards,
Joe W Holt
Sr Programmer/Developer
Jack Onofrio Dog Shows, LLC
405.427.8181

From: Aaron Bartell <aaronbartell@xxxxxxxxx>
To: "Web Enabling the IBM i (AS/400 and iSeries)"
<web400@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: 07/13/2015 10:29 AM
Subject: Re: [WEB400] The responsive web site debate
Sent by: "WEB400" <web400-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx>

<KevinT>While looking for answers I came across one or two articles that
effectively describe ORM as the OO equivalent of the antichrist -"violating
all principles of OO programming" . I don't think we should let that
detract us :)

My test is: Does it work well both long and short term in delivering
solutions in quicker fashion? If so, it's a good thing. I've been a
purist before and it can cause massive slow downs in delivering solutions.
I really like ActiveRecord in Rails. Waterline for Node has similar
flavors of db call simplicity.

<JoeH>I'll be curious to see how Node.js can work on the 400. I've gotten
the Hello World out of it. Then I had to stop and actually work.

Try the following next. Basically two files (.html and .js) to implement a
simple chat client using HTML5's WebSockets.

http://www.mcpressonline.com/web-languages/techtip-nodejs-is-genius-with-websockets.html

Btw, Kelly, well done on providing the community with an excellent topic of
discussion.

Aaron Bartell

On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 10:18 AM, Kevin Turner <
kevin.turner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

While looking for answers I came across one or two articles that
effectively describe ORM as the OO equivalent of the antichrist

-"violating

all principles of OO programming" . I don't think we should let that
detract us :)

-----Original Message-----
From: WEB400 [mailto:web400-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Aaron
Bartell
Sent: 13 July 2015 16:12
To: Web Enabling the IBM i (AS/400 and iSeries)
Subject: Re: [WEB400] The responsive web site debate

Love your work, Kevin. Keep it up.

I've also come up against the issue of missing a good ORM for Node.

Would

be intriguing to see if we could fork Waterline and make it work with the
driver IBM has provided.

Aaron Bartell

On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 10:08 AM, Kevin Turner <
kevin.turner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

My well intentioned (I promise) email about using a nodeJS solution on
the IBMi seems to have been immediately side-tracked into a debate
about whether or not this is the correct forum. Oh well....

-----Original Message-----
From: WEB400 [mailto:web400-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Mark
Murphy/STAR BASE Consulting Inc.
Sent: 13 July 2015 12:22
To: Web Enabling the IBM i (AS/400 and iSeries)
Subject: Re: [WEB400] The responsive web site debate

Seems to me that if IBM i is being used to serve these applications,
this is the correct place to discuss them. While the technologies are
essentially platform agnostic, particularly the part that is running
on the client, there are pieces of the server side that are largely
specific to IBM i, for example DB2 for i. Besides, if we kick out
these discussions we are intentionally diminishing the IBM i
community. If we really want IBM i to be viewed as a modern server,
which it is, we need to be discussing modern technologies in these
lists. IBM i does have a modern UI, it runs in a browser, and we are
discussing it here. So what if the technology is platform agnostic.

Mark Murphy
STAR BASE Consulting, Inc.
mmurphy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

-----Kelly Cookson <KCookson@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: -----
To: "Web Enabling the IBM i (AS/400 and iSeries)"
<web400@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
From: Kelly Cookson <KCookson@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: 07/12/2015 11:57AM
Subject: Re: [WEB400] The responsive web site debate

It seems to me if we're going to build web sites and hybrid apps that
use
DB2 data and/or programs on an IBM i, we need to know our options for
developing the front ends of those sites and apps. HTML, CSS and
JavaScript have become de facto web standards for the front end.
Responsive web sites and single page apps (not the same thing) are two
options we have for the front ends or web sites and hybrid apps that
are different than traditional web pages for desktop browsers.

When we use PHP on the IBM i to develop a responsive web site, are
questions having to do with the responsive front end of that web site
questions for WEB400? When we use Java or the Integrated Web Services
to create a RESTful services that pulls DB2 data into a single page
app, are questions about the single page app on the front end suitable

for WEB400?

What about when we try to create a hybrid mobile app using HTML, CSS,
JavaScript or Cordova? None of these are IBM technologies. But the IBM
Mobile First\Worklight initiative has made Cordova a central tool for
developing mobile apps. Are questions about the HTML, CSS or
JavaScript code inside a Cordova hybrid app proper for WEB400?

I really like the Midrange.com lists, and I'm happy to play by the

rules.

So here's my question:

Is WEB400 an appropriate forum for discussing the front ends of all
the web sites and mobile apps we are building?

Or is WEB400 only appropriate for the back ends of those web and
mobile technologies (web servers, server-side scripts, CGI programs,
web services, RESTful services, etc.) when those back ends are running

on an IBM i?

Thanks,
Kelly

-----Original Message-----
From: WEB400 [mailto:web400-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Henrik
Rützou
Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2015 5:29 AM
To: Web Enabling the IBM i (AS/400 and iSeries)
Subject: Re: [WEB400] The responsive web site debate

Kevin

You are quite right, WEB400 or any other IBM i specific forum/groups
isn’t the right place to discuss either SPA or web client

frameworks.

This will tend to be discussions between very few people where any web
client framework has their own specific forums/groups that seldom are
server centric or specific.

I use EXT JS and am a member of a cross server platform group specific
to EXT JS and HTML5. Most of the members is PHP or .NET guy’s
but we are also
4 IBM i ISV’s that participates and we meet much more regular
that any IBM i user group.

There are clear advantages to participate in other groups, they are
Front End related, they are able to attract experts on the technology
and frameworks they cover and they widens ones network of people with
a common technical preference outside the IBM i frame.

In regards to their main forums there is however a drawback. There are
many people in them (up to 500.000) so the coziness and the personal
relations we experience in IBM i forums are gone and it is very hard
to get answers on ‘newbie’ questions or personal guidance
to specific problems.

With all due respect for Kelly and Nathan’s interesting
discussion I have been following on the side line I personal
don’t think it is the right path. They use hours to try to set
up a simple SPA homepage you are able to make in WordPress in two
hours. But more important – WordPress creates applications that
is content management not business applications. Kelly and Nathan are
playing with the same – simple content management, while
90-95 % of a business application is handling menu’s,
grid’s and form’s that has to interact with each other and
services on the server. To me that’s a whole other ballgame.

But that is another discussion – e.g. are the IBM i suitable for
running CMS and business applications side by side even though it can?

On Sun, Jul 12, 2015 at 11:11 AM, Kevin Turner <
kevin.turner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Oh, and it also uses web sockets to communicate with the nodeJS
server as well as HTTP.

-----Original Message-----
From: WEB400 [mailto:web400-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Kevin
Turner
Sent: 12 July 2015 10:03
To: Web Enabling the IBM i (AS/400 and iSeries)
Subject: [WEB400] The responsive web site debate

"How would Bootstrap be an improvement?"

I didn't really see an answer to this question, and as I had no real
practical experience of bootstrap I decided to have a go at a
prototype that used it so that I can judge for myself. This topic
is not really anything to do with the IBMi platform, it is more to
do with general web design and tooling - perhaps WEB400 is not the
right

forum?

Anyway, one of the things we want to do pretty soon is have a
platform agnostic solution - something that we can run on the IBMi
and any other platform (Unix, Windows) if it is appropriate. So as
well as trying out something that used bootstrap, I also wanted to
try something that used a nodeJS server solution rather than Apache.
While I was at it, I might as well get some practical experience of
Angular as well, so that I can really compare it with our own

Renaissance 6 Framework.

So this is the opposite end of the spectrum. Nathan is rather "anti"
frameworks and libraries as they can be allegedly over scoped. This
little prototype at http://kpturner.co.uk:1337 will therefore fill
him with horror, because I have used Angular, Bootstrap, JQuery and
a NodeJS server
- all glued together with a Framework called Sails (sailsjs.org). I
haven't created any documentation for it at the moment - it is just
a proof of concept really so that I can get to understand what all
these libraries have to offer. However, the source can be viewed on

github (

https://github.com/kpturner/sails_events). As an aside, we are now
using Git on our IBMi to manage all our source code, RPGLE etc

included.

I haven't reached any hard and fast conclusions yet. I have had
plenty of problems trying to fathom out the best way to do things,
mainly due to my lack of experience in the tools/libraries. I would
definitely consider using bootstrap in Renaissance, but Angular (so
far) I find

less intuitive

than our own offering (no surprise there then). What really is

exciting

(can't believe I am using that word in this context) is the use of
nodeJS as the server platform. JavaScript is by far my favourite
language, so being able to write the server-side code in JavaScript
is liberating. I can debug using node-inspector, and have access to
all those node goodies (node-machines included).

The only fly in the ointment so far, with regard to running it on
the IBMi, is the database access. This prototype uses MySQL. The
SailsJS framework uses an ORM called Waterline that provides an
integration layer to lots of different databases, but DB2 isn't one
of them. That is a hole that I intend to fill one way or another.

Anyway, I thought I would share my experiences as well as making
Nathan feel nauseous :)

Kevin

-----Original Message-----
From: WEB400 [mailto:web400-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Nathan Andelin
Sent: 07 July 2015 20:07
To: Web Enabling the IBM i (AS/400 and iSeries)
Subject: Re: [WEB400] 7 lessons from my first responsive web site

Aaron,

Yes, I've already read about Bootstrap's "grid" options and played
with them on one project. But I'd like to hear about some practical
examples of people using them, to better understand what might be
entailed. My understanding, which is admittedly limited, is that
developers may select from "extra small", "small", and "large" CSS
classes for HTML elements. CSS Class names indicate whether they are
targeted for use with various screen sizes. But what is "responsive"
about that? What about GUI elements that automatically adapt to
screen

sizes?

Kelly's site demonstrated the use of "media queries" which
automatically toggle the visibility of a "menu bar" for larger
screens or an optional "drop-down" menu for smaller screens. How
would Bootstrap

be an improvement?

On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 12:48 PM, Aaron Bartell
<aaronbartell@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:aaronbartell@xxxxxxxxx>>

wrote:

*>For those who advocate for Bootstrap, what does it really take
to

make it adapt to multiple screen sizes?*

Check this out: http://getbootstrap.com/css/#grid-options

Aaron Bartell

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